Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Hi, I'm Anna Radcliffe. I serve as the coordinator of next generation engagement for the reform church in America. I also serve as a church plant, pastor of a small millennial congregation in downtown grand rapids. I'm joined by my colleague Ruth Lang camp, who serves as the pro specialist for NextGen friends
Speaker 2 00:00:23 Because this year changed so many things for younger generations. In particular, we wanted to start this podcast to create a space for connection, but we also wanted to unpack some of the greatest problems we're facing today as the Christian community. It's going to be a beautiful mess, but we can't wait to start this with you,
Speaker 1 00:00:47 Jill. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's so good to be with you.
Speaker 3 00:00:51 It's so good to be with both of you as well. I'm just excited for our time and to see, um, what God does.
Speaker 1 00:00:58 Yeah. So Jill, one of the things that we to just start off talking about was your story into spiritual direction. For me, it's kind of a new understanding of how to, you know, connect with the divine. What was your way into spiritual direction? What's your story?
Speaker 3 00:01:20 Yeah, so spiritual direction was the, not something I necessarily planned to do. It was really part of my overall discernment of what was next in my life. And so after my kids went to college, I just spent a year asking God, what is next for me? And I ended up in seminary and doing it distance learning the cohort above me had some spiritual directors. And they said, you know, Jill you'd make a great spiritual director. And I had kind of aware of that, but not really. So that was really, you know, kind of the first nudge toward it. And then in seminary, when things got a little bit academic and dry, I found way into group spiritual direction and then into, um, a training program, a certificate training program to be a, uh, spiritual director, which I just thrived in. And, um, after I graduated from seminary was able to, um, then start, start my practice as a spiritual director. So that's kind of, yeah. What I do and was actually ordained also, um, to the specialized ministry of spiritual direction in the reform church. So that's kind of, that was confirmation that my classes wanted to Orain me to that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:02:46 Yeah. How long have you, how long has it been that you've been a spiritual director?
Speaker 3 00:02:49 So I've been a spiritual director since 2013, so at least, yep. Seven years and then also went on to fuller and got a doctorate ministry in spiritual direction. Wow. So that's just, it's so nice to have come out of that discernment process, knowing what I love to do. And then now just having the privilege of doing spiritual direction and, and sitting with people in real time and, and, and helping them discern what God's doing in their lives. Mm
Speaker 1 00:03:22 Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. There, you know, I think, um, I, I remember going through like a crisis and a friend of mine had said, do you have a spiritual director? <laugh> I was like, oh no, I I've never heard of that. So I guess for anyone who's listening, I wondering if there's maybe like a story of a breakthrough time that comes to mind for you, or just, um, like a moment of significance that might help people understand a little bit about not necessarily the results, like we're not really results focused with spiritual direction, but just what is some kind of a story that exemplifies what it is for you?
Speaker 3 00:04:01 Yeah. Yeah. Um, maybe I'll share from, um, uh, you know, a situation with one of my directee and just an overall, you know, with the spiritual direction, my focus is on the spiritual life, you know, what is God doing in your life? You know, how are you praying? What are your S practices? Um, and what, what are the stirrings of your soul kind of that, that discernment, like I said, so paying attention, how's your heart reacting? Um, so I had a direct D that I was working with several years and we did a lot of work around trusting God and discerning call. And then we really hit a wall. We hit some resistance and, you know, resistance. When I, when we come to that as often somewhere we need to go, even though we don't want to, because that's where God is at. So we,
Speaker 3 00:04:55 Yeah. So we hit this point of resistance and, you know, so I, as the director, I paid a to that for several months and, but Hmm, there's some emotional work maybe going on here that might be helpful. And so finally, you know, I think after, you know, the third month that that had come up and the practice of spiritual direction is really monthly. It's a more of a monthly practice. So about the third month, I said, you know, do, do you think maybe some, uh, therapy would be good around this? And she was like, yes, I was thinking the same thing. And so she did, she found a, a therapist and started doing some work with, with the therapist and, you know, the, the, the spiritual direction and the, the therapy together really helped her over, um, helped her move forward really emotionally and spiritually.
Speaker 3 00:05:49 And so I say that also as a way of, of saying that, you know, what I focus on and what a, a therapist focus focuses on are very different. My focus is on your walk with the Lord, what are some spiritual practices that will help you move forward? Whereas a therapist will give tools, perhaps it's EMDR, perhaps it's thoughts, um, around, you know, ways of avoiding and getting through anxiety. That would be different than what I would do. So the focuses are different. So spiritual direction is not therapy. It's not counseling, you know, it's not mentoring, it's not coaching. And yet those are all aspects of it at times, depending on what a directee, um, bring to the table or what someone needs work on. So maybe
Speaker 2 00:06:41 That's super helpful. Yes. That is super helpful. Very clarifying, I think, um, we're, you know, we're all aware right now that the world has been flipped upside down for many people, including young people and for you to clearly distinct between here's what therapy look like. Yes. What mentoring looks like, and here's what, uh, spiritual direction looks like. I think that's super helpful. And, um, for us right now, Anna and I work with leaders, we also work with younger leaders and we're seeing that COVID has been a challenging time from many of them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so we're just wondering, in what ways have you noticed people's spiritual lives affected?
Speaker 3 00:07:26 Yeah. I I've just noticed a sense of hopelessness come over and, and all ages. Yeah. I, you know, I see people, you know, from, you know, in their seventies, all the, a way down to 17 is, and just across the board, there's just, um, yeah, some hopelessness and, and how I would, um, define that, I think in terms of the spiritual realm. Okay. What I notice is, you know, and I I'll use the, an acronym, them hope, H O P E there's just, there's, um, a decreased sense of, you know, capacity to honor God, right. There's just this, you know, and then a less of an opening up to God, you know, a little bit less praising and, and praying to God, but really, you know, what I noticed is, uh, just not that expectation, that's been lost that expectation that God is going to do more, or that even God's gonna do exceedingly more than what we can ask or imagine.
Speaker 3 00:08:34 And, and so it certainly is that, well, where is God, but I just think there is just this loss of hope. And so I know for myself then in the work that I do, it really was about a year ago that God started speaking to me and saying, do some of my own spiritual work around hope. Mm. How can I be more hopeful to help others be more hopeful? And that's kind of where I, I came up with that H O P E you know, to pay attention to, you know, how can I help people honor God, how can I help them stay open? And how can I keep their prayer lives open and how can I help them expect God to show up in their lives?
Speaker 1 00:09:18 That is so powerful. I will forever remember hope differently. I mean, what a beautiful acronym is there some way, I mean, so you said you've been working at it for a year. Jill, is that
Speaker 3 00:09:31 Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:32 There kind of a way, you know, for listeners who are thinking about this hope or feeling this, this despondent experience of life right now, I mean, what, what do you do? I mean, how do you start with that?
Speaker 3 00:09:48 Yeah. Yeah. And so I'll draw on some of my own experience in, in therapy, um, and make a connection. What, you know, early on in the pandemic, the thing that, that I, you know, wanted people to do or suggested that they do actually came outta my own experience in therapy and in terms of, um, having something to look forward to in real time, you know, so things are shut down, what are we gonna do? And so just encouraged people just put something on your calendar that you can look forward to a phone call, a zooming, you know, some connection or something that you can look forward to. So I think that continues to be true, you know, and that was a trick that I've learned, you know, like I said, in my own walk and, and so keeping some rhythms, but also what is that, that you can put on your calendar that you can look forward to.
Speaker 3 00:10:48 So that's, you know, that was one thing. And then, you know, spiritually and, and prayerfully, um, to do a prayer of exam. And the prayer of examine is, you know, where you perhaps at some point in your day, lots of times in the evening, what you will do is review your day, you know, and think about when was I most hopeful, when was I least hopeful. And so you're reflecting on that. And then you can carry the add into the next day or the next week, Lord, what adjustments do I need to make in my level of hope? Or you can say, when was I most anxious today? And when was I least anxious today? What was I thinking about in those moments? So that's, that's kind of a spiritual prayer that, that you can do. And then just physically, right. We're spiritual, we're emotional, we're physical beings.
Speaker 3 00:11:44 So what do I, what can I do physically, right. To keep myself, you know, hopeful and, and less anxious and breath. Prayer is a good, both spiritual and physical thing. Um, you know, just, just thinking about a word and, you know, when the anxiety or hopelessness starts to take over, just notice your breathing, and then is there a word that you can repeat? Um, but you know, one thing I have, so I have twin granddaughters and they even, yeah, they're six years old. And, and they went through a real time of anxiety recently, they're on the east coast and mommy and daddy had to go retrieve something from outside, and then it was during a storm. And then they just happened to wake up and they're alone. And so, you know, they had this real anxious moment that, that, you know, continued to drag on.
Speaker 3 00:12:45 And they came here this summer for a short visit. And so we went, um, to a cabin. They were away from mommy and daddy, and it was a real strange and different place. And, and I could tell they were anxious and we were getting them to articulate their anxiety. And, and so, um, it was time for bed and, you know, they were both like, I don't, I'm kind of anxious, Grammy. I don't feel real good right now. I said, I know girls, you know, I'm kind of feeling that too. I said, you know what, let's just do the next familiar thing. What's the next thing we can do. That's familiar. And I said, how about let's brush our teeth? And so that is something that I have been doing more, even in my own life, just, what's the next familiar thing that I can do because, you know, anxiety just can take over, you know, even those moments when I am distracted and, and overwhelmed, what's the next thing that I can do that just grounds me in my body and just brings me back. So I offer that as a <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:13:51 Yeah, that is beautiful. I'm gonna be brushing my teeth tonight. Like this is the next anxious, non anxious thing that I can do.
Speaker 2 00:13:59 Yeah. I just think too, that, um, oftentimes when we think about spiritual disciplines, we think of it as very intangible or only certain people who have, uh, specific way of praying and of doing things, you know, they're holy people and so hard sometimes to participate in spiritual disciplines because it feels like it's not something the everyday ordinary person can do. And here you are explaining to us, um, just how practical spiritual discipline is because it unfolds within us rhythms that allow us to take a step back, um, when we're incapable of doing this sometime. Um, and I'm just, I think that's just really beautiful because the other thing we're hoping to dive deeper in with you is this idea of self care in the middle of all this chaos of emotion of what does hope look like self care comes in. And selfcare says, in order to see God working in the cosmos mm-hmm <affirmative>, we need to be able to pay attention to the internal workings of our minds and our bodies For you. Jill, how have you been defining self care and what are some of the ways spiritual discipline has? Undergir some of that thinking.
Speaker 3 00:15:28 Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's a good question. And, um, yeah, the, so the first thing that came to mind for me is, um, I define self care and I mean, this is, you know, evolved, but really, um, as showing up for me,
Speaker 3 00:15:47 You know, it's beyond just, I'm gonna go get a pedicure or a manicure. It's like, how do I show up for me? And the most helpful, like you said, practical way that I can in that moment. And it does take a lot of intention. It takes a lot of, um, you know, self-awareness one thing we say in spiritual direction over and over is just pay attention, you know, pay attention, notice what's going on. Just so self-care I think, you know, requires a lot of self-awareness and then showing up, like I said, for me, and I think showing up for ourselves takes courage. I think it takes the courage to face our fears. And I've been reminded that our fears are also attached to what we love.
Speaker 2 00:16:48 Wow.
Speaker 3 00:16:48 Because we're afraid to lose it. That
Speaker 2 00:16:51 Is so powerful.
Speaker 3 00:16:53 And when we're afraid to lose something, right. When we're afraid to lose what, then we, you know, what happens is this to us is we can, you know, respond with anger and shame and more fear, and then we're not capable of really showing up for ourselves. And if we can't show up for ourselves, we can't show up for others. So there's this connection between self care and caring for ourselves in such a way that we care for others. Mm-hmm <affirmative> also, um, so anyway, yeah, so that's one thing when I do direction with people, I just say it takes courage to do you this well, you know, this work of spiritual direction is self care. And so maybe I'll just give you, um, an example of that, you know, in my own life. So I did, I just did four funerals in a very short amount of time.
Speaker 3 00:17:50 Um, I think maybe two weeks I had four funerals and I was really just exhausted. Um, by the time I finished the fourth one it's yeah. I mean, I was spiritually, emotionally, and physically just done. I, you know, took a nap really, you know, slept in one morning. And then, um, you know, that was restorative in terms of, um, you know, the physical and some of the emotional, but even then just, and I had never thought of this before, but I, when I was in the midst of doing and I thought, well, that was good self care. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, because I went, my husband and I had to be somewhere to my, oh, it was my father-in-law's birthday. And so we had to be somewhere, but we didn't have a card and we needed, you know, one more little thing for his gift. And so we stop at CVS and, and, you know, normally I worry about like the coupons and, you know, getting the right thing and da, da, da, and start micromanaging, you know, all of that.
Speaker 3 00:18:56 And, you know, I usually do that, not him. I never send him into the store, but, you know, in that moment, what self-care became for me was letting go, was giving over control of what happened when I sent him into the car and I sat in the car and just breathed and thought it really doesn't matter what comes, what he comes out with. Right. It will all be okay. But for me in real time, that was, was self care. And it started with paying attention to have how, you know, exhausted I really was, and it was showing. And then that moment I showed up for me.
Speaker 1 00:19:38 Yeah. I love that. I love that. Um, recently I've been thinking a lot about this idea of Sabbath kind of in, in relationship to self care. And, um, I was telling, I, I decided to go off Instagram for the month of August <laugh> and Instagram is like the, the primary social media account that I'm on at least every day
Speaker 3 00:20:02 Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:20:03 <affirmative>. And what I realized during that time is that I was free to be creative. And, um, I was free to ask strategic questions. Like, what do I love? I discover that I love cooking and I, no one would believe me when I say that, because I typically say, that's the last thing on earth that I'd wanna do. Um, so, you know, it's, I just, I totally am kind of resonating with you of this. Just, just these things that we try to hold onto with control, thinking that they're going to be, um, life, life giving to us because we're, we get to, you know, present to what we're proud of, or, you know, give someone the best gift that we could have possibly given them. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, you know, again, for me, part of that Sabbath thing from Instagram was really realizing that I, I was not showing up the best that I wanted to in my workspaces and my ministry
Speaker 3 00:21:02 Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:21:02 <affirmative>. Um, but I, I kind of wanna go back Jill, if that's to some of this fear stuff that you said, I mean, I think that was so powerful, this idea of fear kind of being a reflection of what you love. Mm-hmm <affirmative> when you, if you're willing, when you unpack some of that control stuff for yourself, and self-care,
Speaker 3 00:21:22 Mm-hmm,
Speaker 1 00:21:23 <affirmative>, you know, what's the fear that's present there for you. And, and then how do you sort of connect what the best thing is for you? Does that make sense? You know, I hear you saying paying attention. Um, and so maybe that's your answer, but mm-hmm
Speaker 3 00:21:38 <affirmative> well, um, yeah, you know, paying attention is, is, is the beginning of it, right. And then it's, it's also doing some of those other spiritual disciplines. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so, but, but you know, the fear, I mean, you know, we all have to define what that fear is for us, you know, and I think, you know, and that can be somewhat different at different times, but it's often just tied also to those, um, to, you know, approval of others. Mm-hmm <affirmative> will this be, you know, the best gift? How will I, you know, look, if I'm not doing it, you know, but also, um, so I'm thinking of some different things and it's that, it's that shame if I don't do it, you know, how does that, you know, you know, reflect on me. So that's kind of that shame. And also, you know, what you said about freedom, really the goal of, of any spiritual discipline that we do is freedom. So that sad that you kept, right. That brought more freedom. And so fear keeps us from true freedom.
Speaker 1 00:22:58 Wow. That makes so much sense.
Speaker 3 00:23:02 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:23:03 I feel everyone, if you're driving right now, pull over, because that was so powerful.
Speaker 2 00:23:09 I mean, I'm just also thinking of, oftentimes when we think about fear and the things we're hold on, holding onto it, there's like a physical manifestation of your fear I often have. And when I go to therapy, she always makes me hold out my hand and say, what's in your hand, visualize water, all of the problems you think you have to solve. Right. And I have to think about those things. And she's like, how tight are you holding on all of those? Right. What does it mean for you to lay some of those things down? I think practicing S practicing self care, naming, and being in a space where you're being spiritually, uh, matured and walked alongside by spiritual director is really helping you think about some of the things that you're holding on you that it's important to lay, you know, to just lay down. Yes. And let God be the only thing you're holding onto. And that is a vulnerable space to be in. That is for me to say, oh, I am not the hero. I'm not the rescuer. I will not be able to fix this problem as I am right now.
Speaker 3 00:24:27 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:24:27 Um, but if I pause, if I breathe, if I practice some of these spiritual disciplines, I'm centering myself back to God in a way that is helping me recognize that I'm human and I'm finite, and I'm trying to solve the world's problems in a way that is unrealistic of my limitations. And I just, um, I'm just moved by a concept of, you know, fear being that there's just so much control, but in that control, there is a lack of flexibility of freedom. That is really what God is inviting us into.
Speaker 3 00:25:12 And, and I think are we robbing other people of, of their freedom to be truly express who they are. And right. For instance, my husband went in and, and got something totally different than I would have for his dad. Right. And so, you know, if I had gone in and controlled it, what there would've been a different outcome. And so is, is my outcome the best, or does it create freedom and space for, for more people? <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:25:48 Yeah. I never even really thought about that as a form of empowerment for other people. So like when we do our, when we do our own work and care for our own selves, we are actually empowering the people that we love around us. I mean, that's, I feel like that's marriage counseling 1 0 1 right there. So, um, you know, Jill, when we think about leadership, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, when we think about what it means to be a leader in this time, mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, what would be one piece of recommendation <affirmative> that you would say to any leader who's looking at getting started with, with whether it's starting with self care, whether it's starting with paying attention mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I, you know, there's just, I just am so mindful right now, you know, for leaders in our own denomination, it's just a really, really hard season. Um, and then you couple that with the, the anxiety of the political season with the anxiety of COVID still prevalent in our communities, um, and, and just the lingering question of what happened of COVID surges again, like what will happen to my faith community
Speaker 4 00:27:06 Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:27:08 What, what does it look like to get started in that kind of a context? I mean, what do you recommend?
Speaker 3 00:27:14 Well, I mean, you probably can guess my answer, but I, I just think everyone in ministry needs a spiritual director because it is a spiritual practice, you know, it's that once a month I'm gonna check in with my soul, I'm gonna practice self care so that I'm leading in a healthy way that creates freedom for myself and a culture of freedom within the organization that I'm leading, you know, whatever, whatever that is. Um, you know, and, and maybe I'll just share an example of, um, from, from, you know, one of my directee and this, this particular directee, he started, um, so LA you know, in the kind of last Mar and, you know, shortly after the, the pandemic hit, and, you know, as I reflected on that at the end of the year, when he told me this story, you know, we never talked about COVID, we, we never talked about his leadership.
Speaker 3 00:28:23 He had a coach, and that's where they discussed that. But what we focused on was his relationship with the Lord, how was he praying? How was he showing up to God? You know, how was his sermon prep? All also is something I will ask, um, you know, pastors about, because, you know, that's an window into their soul, how their preaching is going, but really, you know, any co I mean, we, he never even mentioned COVID, but then in December he told me, he shared with me how thankful his elders and deacons were that publicly and their, um, end of the year know, congregational meeting his elders and deacons publicly thanked him for holding the tension of the year. So, well, wow.
Speaker 3 00:29:17 Now I don't know, maybe he would've done that without a spiritual director, but, you know, I gotta believe that that, so something we did, you know, that, that spiritual practice and him intentionally, you know, wanting to be more present to God and to himself, and, you know, helped him to hold anxiety for a whole congregation. And he did have a coach, but those were different conversations to be had than working on his soul. So I think that even helps you to understand the distinction and why, you know, both is sometimes needed in a, in a, in a lead, you know, coaching is, is important, but also spiritual direction is, and as well as therapy as we've noted.
Speaker 1 00:30:08 Yeah. That's super, super helpful. Jill, thank you. Um, you know, when I, I just was thinking about, um, it, that just as evidence for why <laugh> spiritual directors needed enough, I mean, what a great example. Um, but something that was coming to mind for me was just this idea of, um, that sermon prep thing that you were talking about there. Like, we don't even think about the necessity for, you know, we just kind of assume that a pastor's doing the work behind the scenes. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, <affirmative>, um, I'm in the middle of writing a sermon today. Right. <laugh> and I just was thinking through like, what might have been different if I would've taken the time to meet with someone today? Um, mm-hmm, <affirmative> in a, in a formal capacity, that's really about my spiritual journey mm-hmm um, and it, you know, to, to say
Speaker 1 00:31:02 <affirmative> pastors are not, um, to be put on a pedestal for their, their spiritual lives like that. Oftentimes I think that happens <laugh> and that's not, they're not supposed to be the most spiritual leader of the group. <laugh> I think that's a false perception, but that, all that to say, there's sort of this opening up that comes with this sort of spiritual journey and, and inviting someone to be on a spiritual journey with you. And so I guess this is kind of my second to last question. <laugh>, I'll let Ruth ask the last one, which is our fun one, but, um, have you known, noticed that there's sort of this resistance to opening up? I mean, you mentioned early on in our conversation about someone who was experiencing kind of a wall. Um, and, and so for people who are not used to that sort of welcoming someone else into those in interior castles, I think is what, um, one of the mystic set mm-hmm, <affirmative> what what's, what is that like? Can you talk just a little bit about that, how to open yourself up to this experience of someone else being in your spiritual life with you?
Speaker 3 00:32:16 Well, I think it takes courage. I think it kinda goes back to that, right? It's, it's, it's facing, you know, the fear of what if I let someone else in, what will they think of me? Um, it's, what's, what's shame. You know, what I notice in direction is when, um, when directee are hiding, right. Soul is the shy self, right? And so when I feel them hiding, I often, you know, start asking questions that maybe will, um, help them identify some shame that they're experiencing their lives, or sometimes the anger it's like, oh, especially as a leader, I should not be angry, angry. Right. I should be loving. I should be kind, but you know, that, that anger is gonna leak out and Hey, bring it on in direction because, right. So, um, so yeah, it kind of, again, spiritual direction is part of that self care and, and then gaining that freedom. Um, and so, you know, often too, what we, as spiritual directors say that we, we are teaching people that have never been in direction, what direction is, so there is a learning curve to this, right? There's a learning curve to, you know, how do I develop this, this rhythm and what am I paying attention to all month long in order to get there. And so that's why oftentimes we will encourage spiritual practices that will help you. So the spiritual director will help you with this rhythm of paying attention so that it becomes easy.
Speaker 2 00:34:05 That's so good. That's good. Um, I think you saying, you know, my, um, my grandpa is a spiritual director and mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, he's like, I am just a guide. I just, it's a privilege to walk alongside you in your secret walk with God. And, um, I just, I love that language. We're, we're really just helping you understand a direction that you're headed in. Um, and I think that's just beautiful. And for us, our last question really is as leaders, we are always looking forward, also looking backwards, who were some people that walked with us that have influenced the way we walk today. And so we're curious, Jill, um, who is a leader that has invested in you and that you're just deeply grateful for?
Speaker 3 00:34:57 Well, that word invested reminds me of, of faint the as well as time. And I have to say, my husband, who, you know, is a leader, he owns his own business. He has held numerous positions on boards and different things, but, but that man has paid for a lot of education he's paid for and a so that I can do what I do. And he praise,
Speaker 2 00:35:24 Praise God.
Speaker 3 00:35:25 He's the number one bene fact, you know, donor in my, um, ministry come learn, rest ministries, um, which supports pastors and, and ministry leaders. So, and he also invested time. I gotta just give him the credit for, he read every paper I ever wrote, including my dissertation <laugh>, but, you know, I, I would also say, um, pastor Dave, Scott, who, um, yeah, after I got my M D he said, come on staff. And what I mean by that is he made room for me at the table. I think good leaders make room for others at the table. So I was given a place at the table with staff so that I could start to use my leadership skills. So I could to be the spiritual director that God was calling me to. And I was able to help him lead staff through some, you know, hard times and through some discernment issues. And then, and then he's, so he was also a coach for me, he's continued to be a coach and he sits on my board as well. And so, so yeah, those, those are the two people. And then also the spiritual directors I've had, I've had three spiritual directors that have, that have taught me to be a spiritual director. And again, they've held space for me. They've made room for me to practice good self care. And, and so, um, yeah, the that's, that's what comes to mind for me. That's
Speaker 1 00:37:01 Beautiful. That's beautiful. So good, Jill, thank you so much for joining us today. We are just deeply grateful for you and for your leadership. Oh,
Speaker 3 00:37:10 Well, thank you. Just great questions.
Speaker 1 00:37:13 Yes, it was good. You, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:37:15 Discussion. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:37:16 Thank you. Um, for that are on, we will put, um, how you can connect with Jill in the discussion board slash questions on the podcast. Thanks, Jill. See you later.
