Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hi, everyone. Welcome to the reforming podcast. My name is Anna Radcliffe. I'm the coordinator of next generation engagement for the reform church in America. And I am joined by my friend and colleague Ruth Lang camp. Hi Ruth.
Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hi. Hi, I'm excited.
Speaker 0 00:00:13 So we are, um, kind of getting down to the nitty gritty today. We are talking with our friend Kyle med, Scott. Um, Kyle came to us from the C CNA. He grew up in Holland, Michigan, um, but he felt called to serve and love his neighbors by advocating for their right to have clean air, clean water and good food. Um, Kyle attended Western theological seminary. He currently lives in grand rapids, Michigan with his wife, Allie and two kids. And he serves as the vice president at the evangelical environmental network. So this conversation with Kyle, I just wanna invite you to put on your thoughtful pants <laugh> today, uh, to just be really generous. I think the word I want is generous because it isn't necessarily something that whether you've done a lot of work around environmentalism or not, there's an invitation to, to just listen.
Speaker 0 00:01:06 That's the first spot that I would just ask, ask you as a listener to, to center yourself in is just I'm I'm here to listen. Um, and then Kyle will talk a little bit about this as well, but the second piece is to just posture yourself in the spirit of curiosity, um, because we talk about things that might feel political, they might make you feel uncomfortable. And I know there's a couple times where my, my heart was racing a little bit and I was like, this is a hard conversation. And one that is filled with people who are deeply in love with the church and deeply committed to the church. And so I just, I wanna prep you with that. That is our heart. That is our spirit in this podcast. Ruth, what else would you add?
Speaker 1 00:01:50 Yeah, I am fully on par with this conversation that you're about to, um, experience with us because I think Kyle names it so well at the beginning, there's a framework for creation care as Christians. That is nothing like the world brings creation care really does equal people care. And so he has such a robust, theological understanding, a Jesus focused understanding of why do we care about our world and how does caring about our world impact the way we move in it and the way we care for one another. So we are just so excited, um, that Kyle was able to deep dive with us on such a intense conversation. Um, and we just hope it blesses you and it gives you more to think about and to move into.
Speaker 0 00:02:48 Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us. We are joined by Kyle med, Scott, Kyle. It is good to see you. Good to be with you today.
Speaker 1 00:02:56 Good to see you too, Anna. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 0 00:02:59 So, um, we're kind of talking a little bit about creation care, knowing that this podcast is likely to drop a little bit before earth day, um, which we're excited about. So, you know, Ruth is gonna kind of take us away with a few questions to get us started, but, um, you know, is there anything just in centering us thinking through creation care, um, thinking about our language and understanding of this topic, what, what do you kind of consider the definition of creation care to be? Just so we have a common understanding when we, when we start this conversation today.
Speaker 3 00:03:39 Sure. I think of creation care through the lens of Jesus and Jesus answer to the question teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the law? And he said, the most important thing that we can do is to love God with everything we've got and to love our neighbor as if their present circumstances and future prospects were our own. And when I look at things like pollution, things like climate change, the ways that our actions and, and frankly, our lack of care for creation, uh, leads to the degradation of God's masterpiece, the world that God made and stepped back and called it good over and over again. And that scripture tests to over and over, um, that God loves and that God calls us to love. Um, and that God has a good future for. Uh, and when I look at what all that is doing to my neighbor and their ability to flourish and thrive, uh, it's hard for me to imagine following Jesus and following those commands without taking those challenges seriously. Uh, I often say in my work, you know, we don't do this because we're Democrats or Republicans or anything in between or anything outside of that, we do this cuz we're trying to follow Jesus. And, uh, that's kind of my north star with this. And, and I I'd love to just kinda offer that up as a frame for our conversation. Um, how can we be thinking about, you know, everything we're gonna discuss through the lens of Jesus and getting better at following Jesus in the 21st century.
Speaker 0 00:05:23 I love
Speaker 1 00:05:24 That. I love that and we will definitely hold that framework as we move forward, but I am gonna step us back a little bit. Kyle, you said off mic with us that you weren't necessarily the kid desperate to be out in a creation. You're not like me, you don't pack a backpack and you know, hike for three days and camp. And, but here you are, you know, advocating for creation care in the church. How did that journey begin for you?
Speaker 3 00:05:53 That's a great question. I, I like to think that I've grown in that respect. Um, I <laugh>, you mean you will go camping? I have taken up back country camping. I love it. Um, I do love to be outside, but yeah, when I, when I think back to like our generation, especially I think a lot of kids, our age grew up with that, like leave the house in the morning and go to the woods all day and come back for dinner kind of mentality. Right. And, and that's a beautiful, it's a beautiful way to grow up and it's a beautiful way to engage God's creation. And I think a lot of people that I know that I do this work with and, and who are involved in this work, kind of have that story. And I always feel like a bit of an ugly duckling because I was the kid who was like scarfing down snacks and playing video games and watching TV.
Speaker 3 00:06:46 Um, and you know, I I'd go out and play at the park, but I, I was never that kid that was like outside all day, every day. Um, and I, I think that's actually important to share because I think a lot of people tend to think that being involved with issues of creation care or, um, caring about the environment or doing something about climate change requires, uh, that we be a certain type of person that, that we be the kind of person who's out in the back country every weekend or kayaking and canoeing and, and, and, you know, doing all kinds of outdoor rec stuff, um, which is great and fun and beautiful, but that's not a requirement, right. That we don't have to have any one kind of story to come at this work. Uh, and so I, I just like to share that with people that, you know, that's not my story, my story, um, is one of slow growth, slow learning, slow emergence from ignorance.
Speaker 3 00:07:46 Um, thanks to a whole lot of people that the holy spirit put in my path and used to, to slowly bring me down this road of deeper understanding. Um, and kind of for me, I came at this not from necessarily, um, a, a, an intimate, direct, personal love for creation. I came at it, uh, from the perspective of social justice. Um, I had lots of experiences, particularly in my college years where I traveled to communities that were really struggling with things like water quality air pollution. Um, I took a couple of trips to West Virginia to witness the effects of a particular kind of coal mining called mountaintop removal, coal mining. And it's exactly what it sounds like. They plant dynamite in the tops of mountains and they blow 'em up to get at the coal underneath. Uh, and all of that blown up mountain has to go somewhere.
Speaker 3 00:08:41 And it usually goes into the streams, um, off the side of the mountain. And that rubble is full of heavy metals and, and all kinds of toxic stuff that then gets into drinking water. Uh, and so I, I sat in the living rooms of mothers of 11 year old daughters who had ovarian cancer. These girls had ovarian cancer. Um, and I, I stayed with nuns on one of my stays up on a mountain who, uh, couldn't draw water from their well, cuz the aquifer had been cracked by these explosions on the mountain next door and their water had been contaminated. So we could only take one shower the whole week we were there because they shower with the rain water that they collect off their roof. Um, so I, I had these really intimate, personal experiences with exactly what I shared at the top. This idea that, uh, the way that we relate to creation is directly connected to how we relate to each other.
Speaker 3 00:09:34 And it's directly related to our neighbor's liberation and our neighbor's ability to live free lives. And Jesus himself said he came to give abundant life. Um, and a lot of our neighbors don't have abundant life right now because they're breathing dirty air drinking, dirty water. Um, they're staring down the barrel of a future. That's a lot more desperate, a lot more unpredictable and a lot scarier because of climate change. Uh, and so that was kind of my entry point was, was the connecting my passion for the church. And for scripture, I was a, a religion major in college. And I, I went to seminary after, after that, with these experiences that I couldn't look away from. And that, that changed me forever. And I began digging, uh, into scripture and exploring, you know, what, what are the, the themes of justice in scripture? What is the Bible? What does Jesus have to say about these people I've been meeting, um, who are being harmed in really real ways by, um, our inability to, um, steward God's creation well and care for it? Well, so that was kind of my entry point. Um, and it's different from, from other people in this space and that's okay.
Speaker 1 00:10:48 Yeah. And what a profound visceral experience to, um, I'm pulling out two threads here, one, the idea that you don't need to be anyone other than who you are to show up into this space. Yeah. Um, I just think about as you name for me as an African American, um, I have so many friends who did not experience the outdoors, um, in the same way that our white friends did. It was not this getting your, you know, go camping or hiking or you're in neighborhoods where your homes are close together, where housing is, there's just, life is different. And you think about the way you interact with creation in a do I survive where yeah, yeah. It's not so much of how can I enjoy this? And so what you're naming for us is when we think about creation, when we care about creation, we're also thinking about the flourishing of one another.
Speaker 1 00:11:48 Hmm. I wanna be able to see more and more people of color outside skiing and camping and hiking, but before we even get there, we have to acknowledge that the way that our world functions and the way it's structured means that there are things that are necessary that have yet to be met. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and that's water and that's food and that, and the way we take care of creation then impacts some of those things. So yeah. Thank you for naming that right away. And we'll, you know, of course, hold on to that, cuz I know Anna has more questions on, on scripture and do and how you continue to unravel some of that.
Speaker 3 00:12:27 Yeah. That's really well put Ruth. Thanks. It, it reminds me, I have a lot of colleagues in this space who are black and indigenous and people of color, um, who often remind us and teach me that, uh, it's easy for white people doing this work to think about climate change as kind of a philosophical and an existential threat. Um, and it is, it is all of that. Um, but for bipo folks, like it's about survival, it's about not having to watch their kids struggle to breathe because they're having asthma attacks cuz they live downwind of the, the Coalfire power plant, um, or the industrial waste site that was zoned next to black folks. Um, so yeah, you're absolutely right. Ruth. This is for so many communities. This is about survival. Um, it's not about, um, kind of a, an abstract concept. Um, it's it's about day to day survival.
Speaker 0 00:13:26 Let's unpack that just a little bit more, um, particularly what you said about this being kind of a philosophical approach in some ways, um, you know, I I'd love for us to just kind of sit around. What does it mean to make this kind of creation care practice central to our identity as the church? What, what does it mean when we say that this isn't just a, a social policy, this is a Christian thing. This is a Christian identity marker.
Speaker 3 00:13:57 Yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:13:58 How do we, how do we explore that as not just white people as not just PAC people, but as God's people together, what does that look like? Kyle?
Speaker 3 00:14:09 That's a great question. I, I think the, the, the first thing we have to do is recover the truth that earth keeping is our identity. If we're human, then earth keeping is our identity. Um, and that's straight from scripture Genesis one and two attests to how God in Genesis one creates humans after he, he creates everything else. Um, then he creates humans, um, and he says, uh, you know, have authority over these things. Um, take care of it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, rule over these things. And the church has often taken rule, uh, and, and words translated as dominion to mean domination and a blank check to do whatever we want. But in the context of this passage, God is tasking us to rule alongside of him. Um, we are not creation's true. King God is creation's true king in Christ. And how does Christ rule?
Speaker 3 00:15:12 Well, we could look to his, his earthly ministry, whole different examples to get a sense of what that looks like. But I like to go to Philippians where Paul says that Christ didn't find equality with God as something to be exploited for his own advantage, but he emptied himself and took the form of a slave. That's how Christ rules. He, he rules through service and sacrifice and humility by seeking the good of that, which is served mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if, if we're supposed to rule in the model of God, if we're supposed to rule alongside God, then we have to rule in the same way. We can't rule through domination and exploitation. We have to rule through humble service and sacrifice because that's how God rules. Mm. Uh, and then Genesis two is even more kind of evocative. God gets down in the mud and he uses his hands.
Speaker 3 00:15:59 And the Hebrew here is so good and it gets lost in translation, which is a tragedy, but the Hebrew here makes it really clear, uh, exactly who humans are. Um, the Hebrew word for human is AAM here, which is where we get the English name, Adam, um, in the Hebrew, the, the creature that God creates is actually never named. Um, it's just called AAM, the human. And, uh, that's the Hebrew word for human. And the Hebrew word for soil is AMA they're deeply connected. We are AAM from the AMA. We are soil creatures. Um, we're soil creatures that God creates from the soil and then breathes his breath into. So Genesis right away reminds us that we are intimately bound up with creation, despite our desperate attempts to separate ourselves from creation. Uh, the Bible won't let us do it. And then it says, it reminds us, we are set apart, but not set apart for privilege.
Speaker 3 00:16:57 We're set apart for responsibility, uh, to serve creation, to, to take care of it, to rule over creation in the way that God rules over creation, which is through service and sacrifice. Um, and so I think the first thing that we need to do as Christians is recognize this, this is already who we are, whether we recognize it already or not. Um, so part of the task is recovering a piece of our God given identity, which is to be caretakers of the earth. And it gets back to what Ruth said. We don't have to change anything about who we are. Um, because according to the Bible, according to God, we are already caretakers of the earth. That's part of our fundamental identity. Yeah. And then I, I think practically, uh, what that means is all of us as Christ followers are called to reflect that in our daily lives.
Speaker 3 00:17:52 Hmm. A lot of people ask me all the time, like, what should I do? What can I do? Um, and there's, there's so many answers to that question, what it boils down to for me. And what I often tell people is I'm happy to give you, you know, a list of action, steps or lifestyle changes that you could make in your life. I mean, we've all heard them, right? Uh, take public transportation, dry your clothes on a line instead of the dryer, eat less meat, not doing that. I, I could go on forever. Um, and those are all important, but I think a lot of people approach that as a laundry list of dues mm-hmm <affirmative> and like mandates, and they feel a lot of pressure and shame and blame and guilt around those things. And I like to flip that script and I say, it's not hard to find that list, find that list, Google it, you know, find a list of things you can do, try some stuff and find which ones bring you joy.
Speaker 3 00:18:51 Mm-hmm <affirmative> find which ones connect you to that primordial identity that God has placed inside your heart to care for the earth, which ones spark that for you. Sounds good. Um, and integrate that into your life, right? If, if you're, if you are undertaking a practice in the name of caring for creation, but it's killing you and it's just creating guilt and shame and anxiety in you, I think that's the spirit telling you like this isn't this, isn't the unique shape of your vocation that I've given you? Cause I believe part of everybody's vocation as a Christian is to care for creation, but it, it doesn't all look the same. It it's not, um, it's not a one size fits all. So, um, I think we, as Christians need to start recognizing that part of these practices is actually part of our walk with Jesus.
Speaker 3 00:19:42 Um, and everybody's set of practices looks different. I, for instance, in college, I tried cutting out meat, um, and, and eating mostly vegetarian diet. And I found that forcing myself to learn new ways to cook and, and to discover new foods that I never would've otherwise brought me a lot of joy. Mm. Cooking with friends in the kitchen, uh, brought me a lot of joy and sharing a meal together, brought me a lot of joy. And so that's something that I've integrated into my personal practice. I don't believe every single Christian is necessarily called to that practice, but that is one way that I have found to connect my practice with that first identity as earth that God, um, has put inside of me.
Speaker 0 00:20:37 I love, I just love the invitation there, Kyle, like that it really is sort of this, um, God calling out, right? Like God calls out to Abram God calls out to Adam, God calls out to, uh, Ruth God calls out to Kyle, to Anna, to Ruth. Uh, there's just something so personal about the invitation. Um, and it, it just feels, so I love how you also said that it's just, it's different for everyone because our vocations are similar in that we are a dumb mm-hmm <affirmative>, but they're different in that my calling is different from yours. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, my gifts and talents are different than yours. Um, but there's something that happens, right. I think, I think most people would say, oh yeah, I can, you know, I can start to treat creation better, or I can be more thoughtful about the type of car that I buy or the type of clothing that I purchase. And yet, somehow this conversation of creation care has been twisted from this very personal invitation. Once it gets into this, maybe more larger conversation, maybe it is among a full congregation. Maybe it's about policy mm-hmm <affirmative>, it grows very contentious and people get angry. <laugh> can you talk a little bit about why that is? What, what, what causes that? Why is it when it moves from an individual to a more corporate expression? Why is this a contention?
Speaker 3 00:22:10 That's a really important question. Uh, and you're right. Uh, and I think that progression is actually good and right and necessary. Um, it needs to get to the communal and the political level, um, because especially when we're talking about something like climate change, climate change is a systemic problem that requires a systemic solution. It's the result of an answers to questions that we have asked as a society, basic questions, like, how are we gonna get from point a to point B, how are we gonna put food on the table? How are we gonna light and heat our homes? Um, so we need different systemic answers to those questions. And that's where policy, um, plays a really crucial role. Um, and I actually see a relationship between what I shared before about personal practices and public policy, cuz I think, um, each of us does have a unique vocation, uh, but fundamental to all of us is this shared task to care for creation.
Speaker 3 00:23:08 Um, and in our lives that'll look different and publicly that might look different, but it doesn't mean that we aren't all called to engage in that conversation publicly. It just means we might disagree about what the solutions might be and that's okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I'm fine with that. Actually. I, I would love for the church to have a robust conversation about proposed solutions where we disagree. Um, because that would mean we're actually making progress, but instead, like you said, Anna, people just shut down. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I hear all the time when I encourage people to engage in policy discussions and in advocacy, I hear all the time, oh, I'm not political or I don't want to get political in the church. And I think when I hear that from people almost every time, what I'm hearing from them, it is not that they don't like politics it's that they don't like partisan politics mm-hmm and that's actually, those are really different things.
Speaker 3 00:24:05 When we say we don't do politics or we don't like politics. Most of the time we're talking about partisan politics, we don't like partisanship. And I get that. I don't, I don't either. Um, because when we're talking about partisanship and partisan politics, we're not talking about politic, we're talking about identity mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and we're talking about us versus them and we're talking about insiders and outsiders. Mm. Um, but what I think politics is, is simply politics is about how we decide together, how to allocate resources and power, um, across people within society. And I would say as Christians in a way that, uh, advances justice, yeah. Advances the common good and protects the vulnerable mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and those are all things that Christians are called to. Yeah. So, so, um, we need to be engaging in political discussion a around these questions. I just think the church has been ill-equipped to do that because we're taking our cues from broader society, which engages in politics, uh, in ways that are the opposite of the fruits of the spirit that are the opposite of the ways of Jesus, um, that other people that, um, you know, denigrate people, uh, that strip people of their dignity.
Speaker 3 00:25:29 Um, and, and that's, that's not what I would wanna be involved in either, but I think people get nervous or their walls go up. Um, because that's the only example of politics and political discourse we have really mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and so I think the church actually has an opportunity to model for the rest of society. What does actual, robust, healthy political conversation look like? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, that is not partisan, but begins from the place of, um, being rooted in who we are as Christ followers, being grounded in the scripture, being clear on our calling, which again is to advance justice and the common good protect the vulnerable and to care for creation. And then from there having good faith conversations about the solutions that are out there that can get us to that end and being okay with disagreeing about it. Um, so I just think we have a really atrophied political body right now. And, uh, the church is just as sick as the rest of our society. Um, and, and we have not been given the tools, um, or been formed in healthy ways to have these debates in ways, um, that advance those common goals.
Speaker 1 00:26:46 Yeah. Yeah. Um, this is gonna be a two poor question. Um, I'm just reflecting with you. There's, there's an urgency, uh, for this, when we think about the sustainability of our world, we know that there's an urgency that's required for us to change and move forward and actually create policies and personal adjustments within ourselves and in our world that that will actually bring about justice and reconciliation. Yeah. For those who are vulnerable and in desperate need of us changing. And so, and sometimes the church just doesn't catch on that. This isn't urgent work. Right. Uh, and so a phrase that you used, uh, in the past was earth care is people care. Can you unpack that with us, as you have conversations with churches, what does it look like for you to express, um, this phrase with them?
Speaker 3 00:27:43 So I, I think that's a really important phrase that I'm glad you brought us back to, uh, because churches understand people care, right? Um, some churches might be suspicious of earth care, um, for lots of reasons that that we could get into. Um, but most churches agree that we're called to care for people. Um, and so when I talk about this idea with churches, um, it's about connecting their existing mission and their existing ministries to this idea of creation care. So for example, uh, a lot of churches have, um, you know, benevolence ministries, um, or, or ministries meant to minister, to people, um, who are experiencing economic, uh, difficulties. Uh, one form that takes is, um, a food pantry. Uh, a lot of churches, you know, gather food and disperse it to the community. That's a way for them to love people and care for people.
Speaker 3 00:28:55 Um, and one of the ways that, that we can, you know, take that existing ministry and, uh, integrate a concern for creation into it and connect creation care to this act of people care is inviting them to consider, Hey, what if, instead of getting, you know, old cans from Aldi, what if, in addition, you planted some vegetables, um, in your, on your property and you created a community garden, uh, and you invited some of the neighbors to have plots and, you know, you brought the Sunday school kids out there and you talked about what God is doing underneath the soil when a seed is germinating. Um, and then when the food is ready, you give it away along with, you know, the other food that you're giving away. Um, so a lot of it is just trying to help churches recognize that they're already caring for people.
Speaker 3 00:29:48 Yeah. Um, and, you know, acts that care for creation, like having a community garden, um, is just another way to deepen in the ministries that they're already undertaking. Yeah. Uh, another way that we try to do that, that I think is helpful is talking about all of the money that you can save when you increase energy efficiency in your facilities. I mean the dollars and cents are there and facilities, committees, and managers understand that. Um, and so talking about how caring for creation by decreasing your wasted energy, most of which is coming from natural gas and Coalfire electricity, which is emitting greenhouse gases and other pollutants by decreasing your wasted energy and becoming more energy efficient, you save money, cuz you send less money to the utility. Who's burning those fossil fuel and then you have more money to put into your mission and your mission is to care for people, right? So when you care for creation, you're caring for people. Um, so so many churches are already doing one half of the equation and it's just a matter of helping them understand the other half and how integrated they can be.
Speaker 0 00:30:54 Yeah. Yeah. Kyle, one of the things that, um, you know, is kind of circling for me is, is this secondary space, I think churches and leaders that we talk to, like we can get behind the, again, it just, it goes back to, it's almost a communal list. You know, you talked about the individual list, you Google it. Here's how you, as an individual can, can commit to this and then we create this corporate list, right? Like you said, the environmental, um, care package, which also serendipitously saves us hundreds of thousands of dollars on our energy bills. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, those still are lists mm-hmm <affirmative> they still are ways for us to just kind of feel like we're giving back. Um, and you've mentioned the Jesus way, you know, the way that is about sacrifice. It is about putting others above ourselves. It's emptying ourselves. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, you know, I'm just curious, I just wanna push in a little bit on what, what are churches missing? I mean, what do they, what do they fail to see here? Um, when it comes to moving from just earth care for dollars to really people care to really recognizing that their neighbors are struggling and that their ability to use their power and privilege can make an impact.
Speaker 3 00:32:14 Wow. Um, that's a great question. I think I'll try to answer it in a couple ways, starting kind of broadly. I I'm glad you asked the question the way you did. What's the church missing? I've been asking myself that a lot lately, um, especially with, uh, the rise of Christian nationalism in the us, all of the ways that Christians engaged in the public square recently, maybe even going back a few decades seems to be so fear based and so selfish <laugh> um, it's, it's about our power, our privilege and prestige. If it's okay for me to name this, you can edit this out later if it's too provocative, I'm not, if it's, if it's too provocative, um, I was really struck and continue to be struck by how on the nose Donald Trump's appeal to evangelicals was in 2016 and 2020. I mean, he said things like I'm gonna protect the evangelical church or I'm gonna protect evangelicals better than any president ever has.
Speaker 3 00:33:33 Or all of his appeals were so selfish. It was like he said nothing about how he was gonna, you know, care for vulnerable members of our society, how he was gonna advance justice. It was all about what he was gonna do for Christians, how he was gonna secure their power in society. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's just so opposite of Jesus. It's so opposite of Jesus. Um, Jesus literally said, if you wanna follow me, take up your cross and come on, let's go. You're gonna suffer, get ready. Um, and I, I would imagine the church has always struggled with accepting that particular teaching of Jesus mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but I think especially now, uh, in American society, which is wealthier than any other society in the history of the world, um, and where Christianity has been the dominant religion for centuries, um, particularly white Christianity with all that, that entails.
Speaker 3 00:34:43 Um, I think the church today, uh, is missing a lot of Jesus teaching, uh, particularly around our call to at least be willing to suffer to at least be willing to sacrifice, um, on behalf of our neighbor to seek the good of the other before our ourselves. I mean, I, I don't wanna suffer either, right? Like that's a hard teaching from Jesus. That's a hard word. I like not suffering mm-hmm <affirmative>, but I wanna believe that I would at least be willing to mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and I just, I don't know if, if most of the church right now is willing to, and, uh, that is a hard message, particularly around creation care mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's no accident that we don't lead with that. Right. Like, um, there's been a lot of research done into the failures of the early messaging of the environmental movement. And one of them is it was so fear based and lost based. Like here's everything we have to give up right now. Yeah. Um, it just, it turned a lot of people off. And so like strategically speaking, um, and, and based on the evidence and the research, that kind of messaging doesn't really move people. No, but if it's gonna move anybody, it should move the church. Right. Um, but again, uh, it doesn't, and, and I think that's evidence of, of something big that the church is missing.
Speaker 0 00:36:11 Yeah. You know, I, I, I wanna push back just a little bit because I think it's fear is motivating mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I think the <laugh> the, what is not, and I wanna just clarify and make sure this is what you mean, but fear is motivating if it's gonna affect my life. Sure. And make me me experience loss. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, there's a theologian, uh, Scott Cormo who says the rate of change equals, uh, the, the fear of loss is greater than the fear of change. And that, that is when people are willing to change, is that if they're gonna lose too much, then they'll change. Yeah. Um, so I think I hear you saying that the early environmental movement didn't motivate people in a way that it was about, um, also your personal loss, you know, it was just, it was about this. You have to give this up right now. It was an immediate loss, not a, not a longevity of loss. Um, and, and then you have the church compounding in that. Right. Not being quick to step up to the plate and to name that as people of God who are created, not just of God, but of the earth mm-hmm <affirmative> of creation. That is our corporate calling. That is our witness to, to defend what God has given mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, is that kind of what you're alluding to there a little bit, Kyle, when you talk about that.
Speaker 3 00:37:35 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good clarification. That's helpful. Yeah. The, the, the fear of immediate loss, um, the fear of a loss of status of wealth, um, that's what people recoil from and what the church I think, um, has, has been so resistant to in, in recent years. Um, but yeah, you're right. I mean, this, this challenge, um, poor tends more than just like maybe having to give up one of my cars and, and switch to, to one car, right? Like it, the loss that we're looking at, um, and already experiencing in terms of biodiversity, like the loss is there. If we have the eyes to see it, mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but again, I don't think the church has the eyes or if they do, they're not looking, um, because we are experiencing that loss right now. Um, and so many communities, again, who are on the front lines of the impacts of our relationship to the earth who are on the front lines of, um, you know, toxic air pollution from fossil fuels on the front lines of climate impacts.
Speaker 1 00:38:48 Who's loss is immediate.
Speaker 3 00:38:49 They're experiencing loss already, right. They're experiencing loss right now. It's not some future abstract loss. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so the church I think, is missing that. And maybe it's because, well, I mean to speak of the church, uh, we can't even really speak of the church. Right? Like the, the black church isn't missing it, they see it they've been raising alarms forever. Right. Um, but the, the power in American society resides with the white church and the white church, the white church is missing it. Um, cuz we've never been able to talk to each other. Um, so why would we be able to talk to each other now about what our black brothers and sisters are experiencing? Um, so there's just so many layers of brokenness there. That's contributing to the blindness of the church
Speaker 1 00:39:38 As we think about who's missing and what's missing that's that's. My next question is, uh, there's a significant generational gap, particularly as it relates to policy and engagement around creation care. Uh, for us, my generation's always ready to go marching, always ready to sign the next petition to talk about this, to create diet change. I tried being vegan I'm I know that is not my calling and I'm still <laugh> I was corrected and minus the, she should give up cheese. I really should give up cheese. Um, but you, so the expression of creation care that youth and young adults experience is often outside of the church. Yeah. And I'm curious what, what are some workings with that? And maybe some of the eyes that the church needs is the eyes that are not in the pews.
Speaker 3 00:40:36 Yeah. I'm so glad that you named that Ruth and the way you said that at the end is right on it. It tracks with every conversation I've had with young Christians throughout the years and the work that I've done, um, just this sense of isolation and alienation from their faith community when it comes to this, I mean, they're, they're told implicitly or explicitly, like if you have an interest in this fine, like go do it outside of the church, but don't bring it in here. So younger Christians you're right. Like they're, they're, they're expressing this, um, in their local Sierra club chapter and not in their church, not in like a disciple with ship group at their church, um, which is a tragedy because it's exactly where we should be expressing this and where we should be having these conversations and where we should be taking action is in the local church.
Speaker 3 00:41:28 Um, but so many young people have felt like they've been told implicitly or explicitly that it's not welcome. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so they feel completely schizophrenic, um, in their faith and in their pursuit of, um, what it means to express their faith in this way. Um, and that leads to a tons of loss and pain. Um, and, and I think you're right. It's ironic because young people, uh, I think young people are maybe the most precious gift to the church right now, as it relates to earth care, um, and earth keeping, uh, and they're exactly the ones who are being ignored or pushed out, um, because they're trying to help the church grow in this way. I mean, for young people, climate change is not abstract. It's existential. Yeah. Um, I have tons of friends who have decided not to have kids because they're terrified of what the future's gonna be because of climate change.
Speaker 3 00:42:38 And they can't justify bringing an innocent life into a world that's so unpredictable and dangerous without that person's consent. Those are like, that's a real thing that young people are dealing with right now. Those are questions that young people are asking. I don't know how many older Christians know that. Yeah. Um, like we're just, we're not talking to each other about that kind of stuff. So you're right. The, the generational gap is significant and the irony is, uh, that can be a gift to the church. If the church lets it be a gift. Yeah. Um, but so far I, I've not seen many examples of churches taking young people's concerns, seriously, putting young people in positions of power. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's huge. I mean, tons of churches will like create a youth task force and say, Hey, talk about stuff and then report to the council. And we won't do anything about it, but we'll feel good that we empowered young people, quote unquote, but how many young people are actually sitting on councils? How many people are chairing councils, how many young people are in the pulpit? Um, even the, the seats of power in the church are not being shared, uh, a across generations. And that's a real missed opportunity for the church.
Speaker 0 00:43:52 Yeah. You're speaking our love language right there. <laugh>, <laugh>, that's what we talk about almost every day. You know, I think, um, I'm curious to hear how you'd respond to this. Kyle, we often talk to our leaders who are these they power brokers. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, they're in positions where, um, they can make real change. And I think what we're asking for of them is unconventional and it feels the loss is just equally as great. Right. We've got two kind of generations speaking about this, but they're missing each other because of what you said, they're not listening to one another mm-hmm <affirmative> um, you know, I, I, I wanna, I wanna just create a space of invitation for those leaders who might be listening to this, who might be curious about getting started. And I, I also just wanna say like, this isn't about like a radical, overnight shift. It's not going to look like that. Can you just offer an invitation, Kyle? I mean, what does this look like? We, we don't, we're not about just the church giving over to young people. We are about the church being inclusive of all generations of people on mission to faithfully steward the kingdom of God in the world today. I mean, that's what we believe in. Yeah. What's the invitation for our, our power brokers, our leaders who are on, who are running congregations, running organizations.
Speaker 3 00:45:26 Can I ask you a question, please? Can you hear my toddler having a meltdown in the background? Is that coming through?
Speaker 0 00:45:31 I, I didn't, until you said that,
Speaker 1 00:45:33 I heard that a little bit. We'll keep it in because just the reality of
Speaker 3 00:45:39 It's real life. Yeah. Hey, speaking of younger generations, um, okay, so, great question. I think the invitation I'm gonna Chuck to growth. This one, the invitation is to curiosity. Um, first, first be curious about what young people in your congregation are saying, um, not just about this, but everything. Yeah. Um, but particularly about, you know, earth care, creation, care, climate change. Um, and, and that can take lots of different forms. Um, but it has to be intentional. Yeah. Take young people out for coffee or a meal. Like I'm trying to remember what a big deal it was when I was like 18, 19, 20 to have a meal paid for me. Like, that's a big thing.
Speaker 1 00:46:33 Oh, that's a big deal. You win my heart.
Speaker 0 00:46:35 Yeah. Let's be real. The way that the generations have aged youre 30 and you still want that free meal.
Speaker 3 00:46:40 Totally. Yeah. Take a young person out and treat them and listen, like actually be curious. Um, and, and, and then let that curiosity actually unsettle you. Yeah. Let it disrupt your, your modusi like, um, let that curiosity move you to actually consider, uh, ways that you can integrate young people in their voices, into the structure, the leadership structure of your community. So again, like you said, again, it's not, you know, handing over the council to young people completely. Yeah. But it is about intentional recruitment. Yep. Um, you know, I know a lot of churches put out open nominations for elders and deacons. So what does it look like to encourage folks in the congregation to give particular thought to folks who are 18 to 25 and to nominate them too, so that you don't just keep getting the same slates of the same generation over and over, but you start to get slates that look more diverse because you're actually implementing systems that will ensure that you do have nominees that fit that criteria.
Speaker 3 00:48:02 And if you don't have any in a slate, like go out and actively recruit some people, if you don't have a slate with anyone 18 to 25, go out and ask three people in your congregation, if they would consider standing. Um, so that you actually can ensure that you have some young people. So again, it's not about, you know, handing it all over, but it's about including their voices in real meaningful ways. And in ways that reflect the actual makeup of the congregation, maybe consider having some sort of benchmark that is tied to the actual demographics of your church. If you have a church that's 30% under 30, try to have at least 30% representation on your council, that's under 30. Yeah. Um, so actually putting a metric to it can be helpful too, for your own accountability. Um, because it has to go beyond curiosity. It has to go beyond listening to transformation because if our curiosity doesn't lead to our own transformation, then it's just performative. Right. We're not actually being curious for the sake of change or for the sake of growth. We're just being curious to check a box. Um, and, and that's not serving anybody, including the church and the institution that you're leading.
Speaker 0 00:49:15 Yeah. Yeah. You know what I hear in that? It's ironic because it's almost flipping the table a little bit. I think there is, um, you know, we're, we, we report it almost every day. There's a mass Exodus of young people leaving congregations. We, we know that, I know every senior leader in their, their leadership positions know that, um, and then you compound, right. You shuffle the deck even more. You add COVID to that. Yeah. And I think, I think Barna just reported that 30 or 40% of pastors are considering giving up their call and, and reaching for something else. Um, and so before we close, I just, I, I really am curious, Kyle, like, there's an individual aspect of this. There's a corporate calling here. There's a vocational aspect to this. What I'm hearing is an invitation to stay at the table. And, um, we've got a lot of young people that are so tired and so fed up and they are not willing to stay at the table. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and you have a lot of older leaders who have been at the table for a long time. What is the encouragement that you give to leaders to just stay at the table? Mm let's talk about this, you know, what, what is the resilience that's needed there?
Speaker 3 00:50:34 That's such a good question. The way that you framed it was beautiful. And it, it put this in my mind that we can be a gift to each other, that younger leaders can be a gift to older leaders who, like you said, have been at the table for a long time. Cuz there's weariness that comes with that. Right. A lot of older leaders have been carrying the mantle of leadership for a long time and that's wearying and fresh legs is a gift sharing leadership with rising generations can be a gift. It can be a respite. Um, so accept that gift. And then for younger folks learning from the wisdom of people who have been in those positions for so long is a gift too. It's tempting for young people to think that we have all the answers that, um, it's easy to just walk away, burn it all down and start over.
Speaker 3 00:51:26 Yeah. Um, and to forget that there's actually so much wisdom at that table, um, if we can stay there and if we can humble ourselves to accept it, uh, but again, gifts have to be given and received. Yeah. So young people have to be invited mm-hmm <affirmative> and they have to accept that invitation. Um, and, and older people have to offer that invitation and then they have to accept the gift that young people are bringing too. So I think, um, we just have to recover this truth, that we can be a gift to each other because we are all the church and, and no one segment of the church can fully be the church and it's exhausting to try. So let's just let each other be the gift that we, that we are and can be to each other. Um, even when you know, it can be hard to, to stay at that table. Um, there's gift there if we can.
Speaker 1 00:52:27 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Um, Kyle, thank you so much for being with us today. Um, I know that there's still so much to unpack and we are definitely going to have you come back and talk with us. But before we do that with everything we've discussed, what's one last thing that's on your heart that you didn't get to say and would like to end with.
Speaker 3 00:52:47 Hmm.
Speaker 3 00:52:52 The, the call to care for creation, um, is core to who we are as humans. Like I said, um, in Genesis, but it doesn't just live in Genesis. Um, something I love about this, uh, this calling is that you can find it all over a scripture. It is a thread that runs from Genesis to revelation and runs right through the heart of the gospel. Um, and so I guess I'll just say again, uh, this work is an invitation, it's an invitation to discover a, a fundamental component of our humanity that I think is easily obscured in modern life. Yeah. Um, and when we discover that identity again, um, we find a fullness and a joy and a richness, uh, that is a gift, um, and is a God given gift. And so again, these conversations can be so coded in guilt, shame and blame and anxiety. I just wanna offer again, the invitation to flip that around and say, what, what, what joy am I missing by not engaging in this? Mm-hmm <affirmative> what, um, what part of me, of my humanness am I disconnected from that? I can plug back into what God-given gift is waiting for me when I step into this calling. Um, because it's there. If, if we have the eyes to see it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:54:36 So good, Kyle, holy smokes. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 00:54:38 Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. This was fun.
Speaker 0 00:54:44 Thanks everyone for listening. We are so grateful to you for your time. If you enjoyed this podcast episode with Kyle, we would invite you to email
[email protected]. You can catch up with him there, learn more about his work. Maybe pick up a new practice for yourself on how you want to better care and love the environment. But now just a special word of thanks. The reforming podcast is brought to you by the reform church in America. We are grateful to Garrett Stier, who is our sound engineer for Erica spike, man, who's assistant production. And as always, if you have not yet subscribed to the reforming podcast, subscribe wherever you find yourself, listening to us. Thanks. We'll see you again on the next episode of reforming.
